Evan Dumas 

You’re listening to Group Practice Tech, a podcast by Person Centered Tech, where we help mental health group practice owners ethically and effectively leverage tech to improve their practices. I’m your co-host, Evan Dumas.

 

Liath Dalton 

And I’m Liath Dalton, and we are Person Centered Tech.

 

Liath Dalton 

This episode is brought to you by Therapy Notes. Therapy Notes is a robust online practice management and electronic health record system to support you in growing your thriving practice. Therapy Notes is a complete practice management system with all the functionality you need to manage client records, meet with clients remotely, create rich documentation, schedule appointments and bill insurance all right at your fingertips. To get two free months of Therapy Notes as a new Therapy Notes user go to therapynotes.com and use promo code PCT.

 

Evan Dumas 

Hello and welcome to Episode 615: Your Data Is Not Your Own: Why VC-Owned Healthcare Wants Your Information.

 

Liath Dalton 

So this is a really important conversation and consideration that we all, just as human beings, need to be having right now, because the consequences of what is occurring are so significant, right? So before we dive into the topic, I guess we should unpack the title a little bit, which is, what are VCs? So VC stands for venture capital groups, and they are the primary funders for different platforms that are basically trying to monetize healthcare info and AI functionality to their benefit.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah. They want to make more capital. The whole point is that people invest in these venture capital firms, then they want a good return. So they buy businesses, squeeze them, monetize them as much as possible, so that their stakeholders can get more money.

 

Liath Dalton 

Indeed. Evan, how many emails do we get every day with offers to buy groups?

 

Evan Dumas 

Oh, too many.

 

Evan Dumas 

And it’s, and it’s not like they’re just gonna give us cash and walk away. They’re gonna, like, take over, tell us to do things totally against our values and the way we operate, and then, and then crater the business.

 

Evan Dumas 

My actual personal clinic here in Portland, Oregon, got bought by a venture capital group.

 

Liath Dalton 

What?

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah, they ran it into the ground, and it had to close. And I was so upset. Everyone just it, they turned it unprofitable because they, they, they squeezed it so hard. So I, I’m, I’m also an experienced victim of VC.

 

Liath Dalton 

Oh, I didn’t even know that.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah. It’s sad. This company, who I will not name, has done that to lots of other medical clinics in the Portland area.

 

Liath Dalton 

Yeah. I mean, I am aware of the sort of the efforts that they are making to squeeze this profession and corner this area of the market right? And I’m seeing it more from the side of practice owners trying to evaluate, like, oh, is is this a offer that I should entertain or or not? And, weighing what those sort of ramifications would be. But the piece we’re talking about today is really, uh, kind of spearheaded by what’s occurring with client information and AI and the not just like monetization of clients data, but also its weaponization.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah.

 

Liath Dalton 

And honestly, it’s a horror story. So we’re

 

Evan Dumas 

We’ll include it.

 

Liath Dalton 

check out the link to the video synopsis of the direct story that precipitated this conversation. But Evan, how, how would you, how would you summarize,

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah.

 

Liath Dalton 

what’s transpired, and why we are up in arms about it?

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah, it’s a situation where someone thought the sort of innocuous therapy app they were using was private and confidential and wasn’t, you know, part of maybe, they’re part of their clinical record, etc.

 

Liath Dalton 

Right.

 

Evan Dumas 

And they chatted into it, and they used it for solace, etc. And then two years later, those words were read in court. They were subpoenaed without their, this person’s knowledge, and, you know, because they were put into the client’s record. It was all under HIPAA, hunky dory for them to say, oh, disputed. It’s not protected here, we’re going to use this in a court case.

 

Liath Dalton 

Exactly. And so this particular case actually involved Talkspace

 

Evan Dumas 

Mhm.

 

Liath Dalton 

as the platform through which this client was receiving their care and through which their data was monetized and and weaponized. And the the reason that we’re talking about this is because there are an increasing number of platforms that are kind of following the same model, right?

 

Evan Dumas 

Mhm, yeah.

 

Liath Dalton 

We are going to require that if you are using our platform as a provider to deliver client care, that all client communication and care delivery occurs through our platform, and we are going to then use that to train our LLM, our large language model, AI platform to be a AI chat bot, you know, therapist,

 

Evan Dumas 

To replace you.

 

Liath Dalton 

to replace you. You know, using using your skills

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Liath Dalton 

and and your clients, stories and information that should be sacred and safeguarded,

 

Evan Dumas 

yeah, human relationship,

 

Liath Dalton 

and we’re going to profit off that, and then the companies that pay for this service, I’m, you can’t see my air quotes through a podcast, but service is very much air quoted, right?

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah, yeah. And what

 

Liath Dalton 

They’re, then clients who are using this quote, unquote service are giving information that then gets weaponized against them.

 

Liath Dalton 

So this is kind of like the worst case scenario, sort of example of what can go awry if there is use of platforms and tools that are purporting to meet needs to solve challenges in terms of access to care, on the client side, or practice management needs and challenges with credentialing and so on, or billing, for the provider. So these services are purporting to solve those challenges, and in in the process, are taking the information of both the client and the therapist and using them in ways that are profoundly, profoundly detrimental to both the client and the therapist and the the profession as well.

 

Liath Dalton 

So, not trying to be, um, in the in the realm of fearmongering or talking about existential threats. But this is an existential threat in in my view, and something that people need to be informed of and equipped to combat.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah, and sadly, I really understand and empathize with all the people who use a lot of these platforms. Because they just want to work with clients. They want to make people’s lives better, but it’s such a headache to figure out billing, or to figure out an online EHR, or to figure out marketing or connectivity or emails or all these pieces. That’s really tricky in the online space. And so here are these companies, create these systems.

 

Evan Dumas 

Now our arguments about non-transparency of fee splitting and non-transparency of ownership, notwithstanding, which we’ve spoken about in previous podcasts, that I want folks to know that whenever they’re using something that just seems so great, so cheap, so easy, that they are the product. And what’s worse, their clients are the product.

 

Evan Dumas 

Like anytime you use Instagram or Facebook, your data is used to feed Instagram and Facebook, and in the very same way, if you were to use these large, VC owned healthcare systems, everything you do is used to make it money. And here’s the kicker, they can sell that to someone else. One of them was actually just bought by a large other company. So all your data moves to that other company. You can’t even consent to that. You can’t be like, No, it’s mine. Don’t sell it. And they’re like, sorry, we own it actually, and we’ll use this to make our business look good so someone could buy it.

 

Liath Dalton 

Exactly. And all of this tends to actually be occurring outside the scope of where HIPAA protections are applied, at least even performatively.

 

Evan Dumas 

Mhm, yeah.

 

Liath Dalton 

Right? So these companies are setting up the relationships with clinicians in such a way that there isn’t even the bare minimum of a HIPAA Business Associate Agreement, right?

 

Evan Dumas 

Oh no, no.

 

Liath Dalton 

So there, there is not a legal mechanism that binds them to upholding the HIPAA Security Rule standards for how client information is safeguarded, right? So that is massively problematic. And this story is just one example of how that’s manifesting in real life and having real consequences.

 

Evan Dumas 

Mhm.

 

Liath Dalton 

So we offer this really just as a cautionary tale of what can go awry and why it is so imperative that any system that you are utilizing in your practice for an entrusting with client information is one that you have vetted that has demonstrated transparency and trustability.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah, ethics.

 

Liath Dalton 

And that you have, not just like their word,

 

Evan Dumas 

Haha.

 

Liath Dalton 

but an actual binding contract, like a HIPAA Business Associate Agreement, for how they’re going to safeguard client information. Before you start entrusting them with your clients’ data and with your own skills as a clinician, right?

 

Liath Dalton 

So I think we’ve had all of these conversations about, is AI, an existential threat? Is it, is it a problem or an opportunity? And the answer, really is, it’s both.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah.

 

Liath Dalton 

And it depends, right? It can, it can bring benefits. There are immense challenges, though, and they have to be managed. And so to be managed effectively, we have to be aware of what those challenges and problems are, and then take appropriate steps to to mitigate those, those issues, right?

 

Evan Dumas 

Mhm.

 

Liath Dalton 

So please do check out the the story in the show notes about what occurred for for this particular individual, and please also share that with your colleagues.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah.

 

Liath Dalton 

Because this is a pivotal moment right of what is the profession going to do, to not just continue to be viable in terms of how client care is delivered, but how is the profession going to rise to the occasion and advocate for what is in clients best interest.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Liath Dalton 

So not, not to sound all doom and gloom, because we’re not doom and gloom. But this is one of those moments where knowledge is power, right?

 

Evan Dumas 

Mhm.

 

Liath Dalton 

And we need to be aware of what is actually occurring. And this is a startling example of how things can go awry so easily with the different platforms that are increasingly ubiquitous.

 

Evan Dumas 

Mhm.

 

Liath Dalton 

So take a moment to to inform yourself and then share it with your peers. And thank you for listening, and we will chat to you next week.

 

Evan Dumas 

Yeah, talk to you next week, everybody.

 

Liath Dalton 

This has been Group Practice Tech. You can find us at personcenteredtech.com. For more podcast episodes, you can go to personcenteredtech.com/podcast or click podcast on the menu bar.